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Not that I endorse everything the gnome folks do, but when they were preparing 4.0 they called it 3.99 and that was pretty smsrt

I think that if we want disaffected Windows users to come over to Linux that things like this need proper names and docs explaining things. We know in Wiindows there are a ton of popups and folks just click thought them and they ignore warnings they don't understand. Just look at what Linus (LTT) did. Imagine copying all your data over to a new Linux install and getting everything tweaked to your liking then you find this. It looks like something to clean up unused files so the user execs it and no more home dir. They would probably immediately remove Linux. And that's not good. As more and more normies try Linux because of Microsoft fkry ... this could happen.

After using XFCE for around 10 years, I've learned that the ability to customize everything and be "normal", "usable", and "traditional", is exactly what I don't want from a desktop environment. - I'm in love with GNOME and how it does everything. I miss some things, yeah, but I don't even care if they don't add them as soon as it doesn't compromise my workflow (I see you, stupid Alt + Left to get back).

At work, I helped design a image-based ubuntu-like distribution that we can ship internally, to build such a image-based linux distro we use systemd-tmpfiles to "hydrate" the OS image on first-boot. The first time I introduced systemd-tmpfiles.d to my co-workers I had to re-iterate multiple times what tmpfiles.d really meant, so much so we had a setup some explicit developer guides to explain how to use tmpfiles.d and what it's true purpose is. The moment people read tmpfiles, they think it's /tmp or a dir mounted to a tmpfs filesystem.

And remember boys and girls, keep good (and frequent) backups on a disk drive that is separate to where you store your home directory!!!

Seems like standard case of user make grave error with unsafe software and developer responds like a developer. I've seen it before, even responded that way before myself, and it will happen again.

Optimize for least surprise.

I just wish Linux users would get options meant for users instead of system administrators

people piling on and edge use case and blowing it out of proportion, also reminds me of btrfs

my /home/dir is full of a bunch of crap someone put on this PC it needed deleted anyway. :/ :D

Wow, this comment section sure seems livelier than usual. Honestly, Linux drama is always funny, and systemd is the perfect source from linux drama. On the issue at hand, I think changing the name of the project is not that big of a deal, and should be done. Yes, for a while there will have to be some symlinks or something, but changing the name will be much better in the long run.

Lmao, it's like running "cleanup" on windows, and it deletes everything in C:\Users And then this one f**ker comes and says: "it's supposed to do that, read the docs" 1. docs DON'T say what it does 2. program does stuff it should not do by default. (would someone EVER delete /home - and /home can be A F**KING MOUNTPOINT! ) 3. if it says "tmpfiles" ONLY process TMPFILES.

systemdeez nutz

why not refactor to be systemd-files and use systemd-tmpfiles for only tmp files that is a kinda alias of systemd-files --tmp, instead of debating of how the documentation works and put propper block the execution unless that you actually agree on using --purge, like apt when removing specific packages is harmful

Im on the FSF on this one

"Home directory is bloat" - systemd, probably

I use Manjaro and I love systemd. But it's great to know what is wrong with it, even on a different family branch of Linux than mine.

Either rename the service from systemd-tmpfiles or keep it but break out other services like systemd-homefiles. I realize scripts would need changing but I doubt they are dealing with home folders anyway.

I once had to update a config table in a telecom system. The information was stored in an oracle database, and we were using a fancy gui to do queries... It was late at night (about 3:30AM) after a long week, and I was very tired, largely running on autopilot. I screwed up the cut&paste, and instead of getting the whole command, I pasted only "update table set value=10" (missing the whole "where key='something'). As soon as I ran the truncated command, I knew that was wrong and went to click roll-back. Now, at this point, I'm really not sure what short-circuited in my brain, but muscle-memory took over and I clicked commit. Luckily, we were well within our change window, downtime had been expected, and my chief DBA was sitting next to me doing something else. He'd made sure we had good backups before changes started, so it was about 2 minutes to roll-back from backups. I gave him my already written sql code, and the change was completed without further incident. I can totally see an experience admin, tired and frustrated, and just wanting to go home to snuggle his cats, trying to type a purge command, and his pinky misses the right shift key and finds the enter key instead, and boom! a bunch of home directories are lost. It doesn't matter how good the documentaton is, this is a brittle command. We can make room for handling people making mistakes.

What I don't really get is why tmpfiles expanded that far from the actual tmpfiles?

I think the easiest fix would be to have an "edit commit message before merge" button, so that the git history definitely matches the pull request i.e. I could mark a random commit as "merges pull request xyz" even though it doesn't Editing the commit message elides that issue entirely

i think the potential for trolling using this command is the greatest risk: if someone online tells you to run it, you don't really think twice about it, it sounds very reasonable

Literally xkcd number 1984

Enough of Systemd. I Love my Arch. But, i am going to rsync all my files out and start to use Void Linux. Linux was meant to be stable. Look at what it is now. People change what was once good, and put in things that Breaks Linux. And the mother of all things that should Not break, is your Home.

fsf is right

some people don't understand mortal users use their tools, not only power ̶u̶s̶e̶r̶s̶ developers.

just because the tool is working as it should it doesn't mean it is not producing unexpected behavior, it only means that the issue was not in the code

We need more communication guys, iuno if any of yous have a common discord, or a like a chain of discords we could join so we can all start coordinating, if so i would like to join.

Okay, why doesn’t this have a confirmation? I feel l like aan option called purge should probably warn the user upon being run just exactly what is about to be purged. Soemthing like: If you confirm this action, the following directories and their contents WILL be deleted. This action is IRREVERSIBLE and cannot be undone. THIS MAY INCLUDE YOUR HOME DIRECTORY. *list of locations to be deleted* type purge data to confirm deletion. Any other input will cancel this operation. ASo yes, let the person do the stupid thing if they REALLY want to, but at least warn them that what they’re about to do is, in fact, stupid.

The documentation in its original form was pretty bad, but IMO the user deserves some blame as well.

Too lazy to rm -r /var/tmp/* …? Seems faster and more explicit than using sustemd, launching an entire service for such a simple task and having to do it with sudo seems a serious overhead

I'm not well verse in these things but why is /home created by tmpfiles.d in the first place?

I believe the world switched from python 2 to python 3 perfectly fine. I fail to see how it wouldn't be possible to deprecate tmpfiles to entiresystem, for example. Packages change. The *nix world knows how to do this.

I don't think its reasonable to expect a user to read the documentation for a command called systemd-tmpfiles, see references to the tmpfiles.d directory and realize that means it deals with non temp files too. When a user complains about this confusing command name and documentation, bluca gets defensive and replies that you shouldn't run commands if you don't understand what they do. But that what documentation is for, and if it is written in a confusing way where even experienced users would think it only deals with tmp files, then I don't think it is valid to argue it is the users fault.

as usual, linux power users and devs taking the stance that UX is not real, and anything that goes wrong is the fault of the user not fitting their brain to the tool

OpenRC never tried to delete my home directory 💅💅💅

poettering isn't just some redhat dev, he's THE redhat dev who created systemd. glad to see he was not as jaded as that other org member

I think renaming should be a priority

Am I reading this correctly? Why the hell is the default directory for SystemD-TmpFiles the *HOME* directory? That's like the last place you'd expect a clean-up tool to check. Why didn't they just use /tmp, /swap, or heck ~/.cache for Pete sake. Think of the idiots, and fat fingers people!

Hello! You have covered the topic really well, especially compared to other places I have seen... The way maintainers handled the issue was overall positive, and Bluca might have had a bad day at work. I admit I was pretty upset about his response, but I decided not to respond until I thought it through - which was probably the right move. Then many people took this issue, and just added it to their arsenal of "why systemd bad", or something like that, without actually understanding what happened here. By the way, the "je" is pronounced more like "ye" in English, other than that your attempt was pretty good ;) Be glad my primary username, Grzesiek11, was taken on GitHub, as that would be a greater challenge :P

when is a tmpfile not a tmpfile?

Not usually one to weigh in on "systemd bad" stuff, but I must remark that extending a utility named "tmpfiles" to manage user data is awful project governance. The solution for wizards with a magical crystal ball would have been to name it better initially, but from the perspective of building the functionality once the tool is already in place, either duplicating the code or ye olde changing behaviour based on executable name would have been preferable in a situation like this.

I Use Linux Mint and It Never Happened with me and Never Will...

Wait, people delete things?

I've never seen a story or a luke smith style video about systemd making somebody's work easier.

It's kind of fascinating and frustrating to watch mainstream apps and services go through cycles where they have been updated/improved by the community all the way up until a new version comes out, which is somehow worse and less backward-compatible every time

A reminder to have a solid backup regime, including the dot directories.

I don’t like systemd, but I begrudgingly accept it because I’d rather use it than replace it

there is a good reason that I make differential backups every 3 hours and a full backup every week....Ive had my home directory nuked pretty much any way possible and I dont want to lose data I actually like.

I feel like by the time systemd is stable and well documented, it's going to be out of date.